Star Citizen now selling land with Land Claim Licenses for real cash

Star Citizen now selling land with Land Claim Licenses for real cash

For years CIG has been Star Citizen selling ships to help fill the coffers to fund development and today the latest money-making scheme has been launched.

Called Land Claim Licenses, these licenses entitle a play to claim a single 4km x 4km or 8km x 8km of UEE land that has been zoned for commercial, residential or industrial use. Although these “licenses” can be purchased now for cash ($50.00), they will be purchasable with UEC, the in-game currency, when the mechanic is launched in the game.

In conjunction with the license, players will also have a GEOTACK marking beacon. This beacon is inserted into the ground and a memory module in the tip which is then taken to a Planetary Development office to execute the claim with the license. The beacon will also send data to the owner such as weather conditions and if someone is trying to “exploit your property”. Destroying a beacon is apparently a criminal offense so expect a lot of these to be destroyed.

These licenses for something that does not exist in the game are being sold right now and Licenses will even be able to be sold on to other players second-hand. The system is a great idea when there is actually a game to play that can facilitate the feature but to launch it so early for a price is a real cash-grab.

A lengthy FAQ has been posted on the official site, but even though  Land Claim Licenses would make sense in a completed game, CIG’s continual efforts to squeeze more money out of backers has become tiresome and increasingly concerning. CIG are quite simply running before they can walk.

You can watch Chris Roberts talking about the feature in the new Star Citizen ATV where he explains why they came up with the concept.

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  • Paul Younger

    Founder and Editor of PC Invasion. Veteran PC gamer of over 22 years.

    • Rasto

      “Land Claim Licenses would make sense in a completed game, CIG’s continual efforts to squeeze more money out of backers has become tiresome and increasingly concerning. ”
      No, land claim licences WILL make sense in a completed game.
      And nobody is squeezing money from anyone, it is completely up to you if you pledge also this way or not. If you are too poor to throw your money at the project you want to support, then simply don’t do so.
      This can only be “concerning” for people who think that wasting their life time by grinding useless crap in computer games to “progress” in them means any real achievement in life. All this can cause is addicted patients to revisit their values, because now there is another way where a person with a job can pay 2 hours income to buy 48 hours of dull grinding.
      That’s only a healthy thing. Bitches.

      • LightsOut

        How about they solidify the core gaming mechanics before running another CASH ONLY swindle? You know, actually build a game instead of a glorified tech demo that doesn’t crash every 10 minutes. CASH ONLY screams desperation and problems.

        How much are you in for, Commando?

        • Joe Blobers

          You are probably missing communication of backers playing during hours without crash to desktop. The current build is pretty solid in terms of stability and fixing bugs is normal software development.
          Guess why this is under PTU status? “T” for test….

          • Tinus

            Is somebody forcing you to type this utter nonsense with a gun to your head? Or have you just completely gone bonkers?

            • Joe Blobers

              Thanks for showing once more to readers how haters troll behave 🙂

          • samplerico

            And Framerate?

            • Joe Blobers

              Improving with the patch they throw to PTu once or twice a week. Moving in the right direction and will keep improving before reaching Beta.

      • https://kougeru.tumblr.com/ Kougeru

        “who think that wasting their life time by grinding useless crap in computer games to “progress” ”

        You mean playing the damn game? That’s how it SHOULD be done. At worst, it should take LESS time to grind the UEC required to buy this in-game, than it would take to earn the money to buy it IRL at minimum wage. So it should take no longer than 14 hours of grinding to get enough UEC to buy this.That’s the only way this will not be pay2win. Working for 2 hours should NEVER be enough to pay for 48 hours of grinding. That defines pay2win. You’re a plague on the gaming industry and community if you really think that’s fair. What’s the point of the game if you can just pay money to unlock everything?

        • Joe Blobers

          Quote: “What’s the point of the game if you can just pay money to unlock everything?”

          – First: nobody force anyone to spend more than basic starter package.

          – Second: This is an MMO…. MMO are not supposed to be limited by time but contents. WOW is 10 years old and added 7 DLC’s. Land claiming is just a new gameplay DLC type bringing of course not only a Claim Licence but a whole gameplay linked to “owning” a land and building station on it or mining/farming.

          – Third: SC does not have monthly subscription beside starter package. MMO are viable either trhough monthly fees, DLC’s and Micro-transactions.

          -Forth: Not everyone have 10 hours to spend in a single game every weeks. So what you want is an apartheid of people who spend days per month playing SC and leaving others with few hours on the fence, enjoying game and assets via youtube from long time players?
          What is your problem if a land, ship, station is bought with in game credits or real cash? The result is that it bring life to the game not an empty space accessible to hardcore gamers only.

          • Rasto

            “hardcore gamers” used to be a term for players who are dedicated to their favourite, often more complex game, such as simulators or problem solving or at least strategic games, as opposite to simple arcade time wasters. Live for Speed online tournament races comes on mind.
            Today with smartphone arcades with microtransactions it becomes a topic of professional psychologists. Even in online PC games I keep bouncing to both children wasting most of their free time in it, causing them to grow to psychopats with poor or no social skills, empathy and physical body fit, or to adults with meaningless poor job or no job at all, who gave up on normal life activities and just kill their time in virtual world of games, substituting grinding up to “end game gear” for actual achievements and goals in life, hoping it would bring them out of depression.
            For example dude across the street, admin of a small company server is just a plumber of today. And you can tell by the way he is speaking. Jobs like this will get replaced by A.I. soon. He still tries to elevate himself by telling me stories about that stupid secretary, but I think that even he knows, how embarrassing it sounds…
            Oh did i mention he loves anime? Well of fucking course he does!

      • John A

        CIG is selling a product for money (ships and now land). Buyers should have a reasonable expectation of their purchase eventually be fulfilled. What is the timeframe allowed for CIG to actually deliver on them before this is considered a scam? A decade? A lifetime? Never?

        Would you be angry if other entities worked on this model? (a roofing company, for instance, takes your money, and then waits 6 years to build your roof because they are waiting on materials?)

        • T_0_m

          Technically, it’s not a scam until they fail deliver the product as promised – either if they go bust, or it emerges that they know they can’t deliver.

          Doesn’t stop us expressing an opinion by calling it a scam.

          • John A

            Well, according to the original Kickstarter, the release date was supposed to be 2014. Going on 4 years later, it’s still in pre-alpha? Also, it seems Squadron 42, which also was originally supposed to be released in 2014 (then 2015, then 2016, then 2017) has been taken entirely off the board. Didn’t they sell copies of Squadron 42 and make money off of them?

            This is why I ask, what is the delivery timeframe for it not to be considered a scam? At this point it sounds like people are willing to wait out at least the total lifetime of Chris Roberts (Roberts is currently 49 years old, so we may have a 30-50 year wait.)

            • Rasto

              John, to your 1st comment about selling a finished product, well no, this is in fact a kickstarter project, right? From 5 simple basic rules of Kickstarter.com there is also this one, going beyond what you call selling a product, which is what others also falsely call an investment into future project:
              “Projects can’t offer equity.

              Investment is not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t offer incentives like equity, revenue sharing, or investment opportunities.”
              source: https://www.kickstarter.com/rules

              And to your 2nd comment I would say that since you are posting these data, you certainly must also know what actually happened to the “originally supposed” release content and scope and consequently its estimated date, don’t you?
              People are not only willing to wait for their dream game, but they are actually enjoying the ride. Videos tracking the development are one of my favourite TV show to watch every week, and I am just a 3D graphics guy, not really any game developer. What these guys are building there is astonishing. More power to them.
              And we could care less about gatherers of free or sale games on Steam, or about butthurt failed “developers” of wannabe all warfare space game, couldn’t we? I mean, since all these “arguments” against CIG are so embarrassingly weak, the question one may ask is, what are real reasons behind all this salt? I bet we would laugh hard, if we could find out.

              • John A

                The “real” reason behind the salt for me? I got into the game and bought a few ships after two wonderful demos last year showing landing on beautiful planets, quest givers, occupations, and giant space worms. I was told all of it was “right around the corner” at the end of 2016 along with Squadron 42 release. Little did I know I would be entering right at the time of largest “update desert” the game has ever seen, with over a year of non-activity and broken promises. Why did they show things that aren’t even close to feasible and claim they were around the corner?

                I have since melted and sold everything (thank God for the grey market), so I could care less about what is happening (or not happening) in the game. I simply want to warn those unsuspecting suckers (I mean backers) slapping down $890 for a 890 jump ship: don’t expect to be able to fly your expensive ship in a playable game within your lifetime. In fact, the guys who bought their’s back in 2014 and thought they were “special” are still patiently waiting for their chance to fly the ones they bought 4 years ago.

              • Rasto

                thanks for a reasonable reply. Upvoted.
                You like to act fast I see. Well good you could get your money back. Or mostly at least, i suppose.
                Star Citizen is not right around the corner by any stretch nor imagination.

        • Joe Blobers

          You compare a company waiting for material and a software company building a triple-A? Fine

          Both company have zero funds and close to no team or dedicated tools. They ask for funds (Kickstarter) at some point (mid 2014) companies say: “you have been very generous, what about to get 2 Triple-A and features never done before by anyone?” Resounding Yes by the community, followed by three times more cash.
          We are at precisely 5 years after end of kickstarter in Nov. 2012 Starting from 12 guys and 6 M$, no dedicated game engine, o pipelines, no studios…

          3.0 is NOWin thousands of backers hands. This is the fundation of everyting, IA, subsumption, Netcode, PG, missions… everything. Still 4 much smaller patch to add.
          We are talking about end 2018 or mid 2019. Not 2050, not never.

          Leave alone those few that enjoy to hate something. Really, CIG and community building this project does not deserve a pinch of it.

    • Tony Rosa

      Just another cash grab, this one just a little more desperate than how they are now offering the formerly limited edition 890 Jump, now in the anniversary edition. This man simply has no shame and since cash flow is way off he is selling everything possible including things that he swore to backers that would be offered for sale one time only. Just another broken promise in a long string of broken promises. I am so glad that I got fully refunded.

      • Joe Blobers

        They never said limited to one single sale… The number of Idris is limited by the number of total backers. Same for 890Jump.
        No CR is not evil reincarnated, the model is the same than during original kickstarter: Crowdfunded project for Backers who do not want a Publishers game in which they spend 50M$ to make the core game (mainly changing skins of past release + a few new maps) and 100M$ on marketing, middle men org and share holders.

        • https://macross.jp/delta/walkure/ mikumo

          Ah, Joe Blobers the resident Star Citizen shiller who always has to have the last say on something when someone has even a hint of negative to say on his dear non-existent game or Cultist Lord Chris Roberts. Don’t worry mate, keep on going because your efforts to defend every single negative comment is quite hilarious to read. Don’t worry when it all comes crashing down and CR runs off with whatever is left, I’ll be one of the many to come here and laugh at you first. You won’t be forgotten mate. I know it’ll be hard, but please don’t off yourself before then so I can have one last laugh.

          • T_0_m

            Predicted response from Joe Blobers:

            “These are just trolling words. You don’t understand how game development or crowdfunding works.”

            • Joe Blobers

              This or “90 days top”… since 2015 🙂

              Come back next Citizecon… oops the Clown said 2017 was the last, like he did say the very same in 2015 and 2016 🙂

              • T_0_m

                Oh there he is. Joe, I guess you’re really busy running around defending SC at the moment. You’d better get over to r/games too: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7g7lwd/star_citizen_land_claim_licenses_now_available/

              • Joe Blobers

                Oh there he is. T_0_m, I guess you’re really busy running around attacking/soiling CR and backers?
                SC at the moment. You’d better get over to SC FAQ too:

                https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/16292-Q-A-Land-Claim-License/

                No need to freaking out. Others thread on r/starcitizen/ are polit and to the point, with the same discussion as usual. land or ships= pledges.

                And none is forced to add an extra $.

                landClaimgate after LoanGate…. pretty funny indeed 🙂

              • T_0_m
              • LightsOut

                CIG is going to pay him overtime today.

              • Joe Blobers

                Critical? So what? They say it may be too early or asking when game will be released… and you know what… This is good. Good or a bit of critical position this… more article = more visibility.

                Re-read articles. There are not saying scam or collapse 90 days top like the clown 🙂 They have full page with features, details, link of video and a line or a single paragraph about Land License “controversy”.

                They litteraly copy/paste full page of CIG + video:

                “”Please Note: These claim licenses are being made available for pledging
                to help fund Star Citizen’s development. The ability to obtain these
                claim licenses will ultimately be available for in-game credits and/or
                otherwise earnable through play in the game. Pledging for these claim
                licenses now allows us to include deeper features in the Star Citizen
                game, and is not required for starting the game.”

                Free adverstising everywhere 🙂

                Fake refund, LoanGate, Ressort on a pacific island, Swedish mafia… 🙂
                In few days.. no one will even talk about it… when those who cross by those article will remember to follow it closer… or jump in:)

                Give us more 🙂

              • T_0_m

                LOL. I feel a bit sorry for you Joe. It wasn’t so long ago that all you SC shills were the only voices in these comment sections and could shout down the occasional dissenting voice. But now you guys are actually in the minority vs the majority who think it’s all a scam.

                You say “Free adverstising everywhere” but you must realise that this is bad PR. Either CIG have fucked up big time or they’re desperate for cash, there aren’t any other explanations.

              • Joe Blobers

                Yes the other explaination, proven true at every of your comments, is that you do not understand crowdfunding and even less how human psychology works….

                Land, ships, flers: all different way to pledges. Your so call bad PR are just a 3 days buzz…. givng more visibility to CIG. bad? According to some, this is a scam and will never be released. How can it be worst 🙂 This is giving extra visibility and opportunity to readers to click on video links.
                Thanks to keep leaving comments so Article stay on top 🙂

                You trolls did already used all possible “ammo”:
                – Fake demo… 3.0 testes by thousands in PTU
                – LoanGate : a flop which turned to be best financial praticse to optimize cash
                – Collapsed 90 days top: … since 2 years and half
                – Resort in Pacific payed by backers, porn movie, Swedish mafia landering cash trough grey market and the best from the Clown himself: “seamless from space to planet decades away”… here and now available in 2017

                You are the most funny and desperate Clown’s followers ever. 10 guys and alts. 🙂

              • Joe Blobers

                December 4th: Best Anniversary sale ever. Cry us a river 🙂

                I have to go down through 36 pages of reddit to reach a land Claim thread and it is only 4 days old…

                Here are those few threads :

                1185 vote – What happens when someone encroaches on your Land Claim.
                1137 vote – Why are so many people complaining about land claim?
                1022 vote – Please read the Q&A before freaking out, please
                643 vote – All this discussion of land-claims.. I want an Apartment on Arc-Corp
                253 vote – Can I use the Claim Beacon as a melee weapon?

                You can read all of them and will have a hard time to extract something higher than roughly 10% really hangry guys, the remaing being “this is may be too early” and the vast majority do not find any real issue with it or are already planning future gameplay.

                Meanwhile the thread with the most vote is this one (in the past 4 days):

                3751 vote – The moment you realize that the moving black area on the ground isn’t a bug or a glitch, but the shadow of a rock above your head 🙂

                Another slap to nay-sayers and trolls 🙂

              • T_0_m

                You quote Reddit as if it’s proof of something, it really isn’t. Here is proof:

                Ships in red are not available in game !
                https://i.imgur.com/os9ra94.png

                YOU ARE ALL BEING LIED TO BY CIG – GET A REFUND

              • Joe Blobers

                Readers: You are all being lied by trolls . Those “year of obtainable ships” are Concept sale, I.E., to be delivered later on. Troll keep making graphs which have no sense… and avoiding to face their latest one old week lie about Anniversary sale being the worst of CIG’s history… This is just the very opposite, what a surprise 🙂

                Get a Package before you pay it full price 🙂

              • T_0_m

                Yes readers. CIG haven’t implemented ships they promised people 4 / 5 years ago.

                They are taking you all as fools and laughing all the way to the bank with your money.

              • T_0_m

                Joe, when you say “Get a package” to what exactly are you referring?

          • Joe Blobers

            I am sure you understand the difference between negativty and lying. Do you?

            And about crashing down, are you talking about the best ever CIG Anniversary sale which was for sure an epic disaster 5 days ago according to the same nay-sayers? Facts + numbers man.

            Keep laughing at your leisure. Clearly you think that laughing at a screen is more entertaining than to educate yourself.

      • samplerico

        How did you get your refund? I am asking for mine and waiting for their answer, maybe you can give some tips. Thanks.

    • Oggysden

      Get a refund

    • Tufao

      Scam.

    • Jesse Low

      Scam Citizen. Get a refund. Derek Smart was right

      • Joe Blobers

        The Clown will never be right. He have been wrong during the last 20 years, achieving nothing but emptiness.
        Oh my bad…he did something. A blog 🙂 To try to harm his personnal ennemy CR together with backers. Building something has never been a thing for him, so destroying others toys his the single remaining option. Sad end for a still incompetent indie dev.

        • Tinus

          Oh man, are you about to eat your words. It will be even more funnier than this 3.0 PTU / land sale cash grabbing thingy. And please don’t be a dickhead and remove all your comments after the big finale of the ELE for CIG has arrived. It won’t be long now…

          • Joe Blobers

            Quote:”It won’t be long now…”

            Yeah we now.. 90 days top! 🙂

            Everything about SC ends up to be a “somethingGate” every month or so. Today this is Land Claim Licence, which is exactly the same than a pledge for a ship, same model since the very first Kickstater day.

            Nothing new and like all the times during those past year, all extra pledges beside Starter package are totally optional. So another storm in a teacup 🙂

    • Joe Blobers

      Beside the usual handfull of haters troll team doing their daily obfuscation job, the anniversary sale just demonstrate the variety of gameplay that SC will provide with many options to enjoy a massive universe. Not massive by the number of planets as they can create millions of planets with PG (ED do have +400 billions systems not even counting planets) but massive in many different gameplay on a limited numbers of semi handcrafted systems (5 to 10 by Beta and 100 on a longer run).

      And of course we got the LandClaimGate! What is the difference between buying a ship with real cash to fund a project without Publishers funds versus a piece of 4Km land pledge? CIG explained that all backers (estimated to +600.000) having each a Claim Land Licence will cover only half of a planet surface.

      Knowing each system can have up to 10 planet/moons + asteroids fields, 100 systems are enough to get 600K x 1000 = 600 millions of players…. 🙂 I think we are safe to say nobody will walk on each others feet and that more gameplay like land+surface minining+farming bring more diversity and life to a game than billions of empty planets. (not complainging about ED as I am also an early ED backer and enjoy diversity)

      And as usual, nobody is forced to pledge more than a basic 45$ package…

      • T_0_m

        “Read articles done by pro. You won’t find any one shooting your uneducated comments about SC crowdfunding and game development.”

        That’s a very recent quote from you Joe. Well, now I have read an article from a real pro and this one says:

        “CIG’s continual efforts to squeeze more money out of backers has become tiresome and increasingly concerning. CIG are quite simply running before they can walk.”

        This land sale is a transparent cash grab. CIG know it’ll generate as much bad PR as revenue – they are risking their reputation and the goodwill of the community over a relatively small amount of money. This is desperation from a company in trouble, if anyone is stupid enough to have cash in this thing now then they deserve to lose it all. GET A REFUND BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE

        • Joe Blobers

          Some use “cash grab” while I see commercial practice to offer variety of pledge and support to those not looking to buy very expensive ships or not a subscriber.
          Again, this is totally optional and pledging a single starter package is fine.

          This is not evil nor a proof of any scam. And if you reread paul’s article, beside his comment about his perception of cash grab, I can’t find any sign of SC being a scam.

          We Backers are building something. 3.0 is there in heavy test. All backers will have it in a matter of weeks or even months, this is not important. Meanwhile the company keep pushing SQ42 and next 3.1 patch.

          As usual: Your refund parody is equal to the “seamless from space to planet decades away” prophecy… grossely hilarious and pathetic 🙂

          • T_0_m

            Do CIG pay you to do this, or do you just have such eye watering sums invested in SC that you’re doing this to make yourself feel better about that decision?

            • LightsOut

              He claims he only has $45 in the game. What does Occam’s Razor tell you?

            • Joe Blobers

              I pledge in minimal pledge back in 2013 and did not regret it. I saw some buying completionist package. I won’t not because I do not trust CIG but I would throw that amount of money if I could become a share holder! Your hatred campaing in nothing but noise man 🙂

              • T_0_m

                “I pledge in minimal pledge back in 2013 “, ” I do not trust CIG”

                Are you the real Joe Blobers or is this a parody account?

              • LightsOut

                The hate card? Did that replace the racist card? You pull it out when you have no actual rebuttal?

        • Rasto

          no I am not going to GET A REFUND Tom, I was considering it, but now when you said it, I think I better continue my support of CIG, because you sound like a typical uneducated internet imbecile. Thanks for your input.

          • T_0_m

            You’re welcome to do whatever you want with your money, you don’t need to follow my advice. However, if you can’t see that this is a sign of desperation then I’m not sure I can help you.

            You and Joe can answer just one question please (without resorting to personal attacks if you can help it) : why not wait until the base building /land ownership mechanic is ACTUALLY in the game before selling land for real money? and don’t say it’s for crowdfunding, it can still be for crowdfunding when the game mechanic actually exists. So why now unless they’re desperate for cash?

            • Rasto

              Answer: because there is no need to wait, when CIG is announcing upcoming feature, it was so far just matter of time until it came into the game for many of them. There was no need to wait and play some Lord Fair Knight, because, reasons, as illustrated by people actually purchasing the Land Claim Licences already now.
              Which still leaves an option for justice warriors to wait until the mechanic is ACTUALLY in the game.

              And now something what i actually wanted to reply, but which would be quickly dismissed as deflecting the question:
              This really feels like debates with religious idiots about their god – they never start with the most important and interesting topic, which is why they actually believe that nonsense. Well of fucking course not, because it’s laughably embarrassing to publicly admit that one is scared of death, or in need to feel special, because their mom doesn’t tell them so anymore. They love to start with try to poke holes to scientific body of knowledge. Be it evolution by natural selection, or big bang, or for some extremely deluded fellas, even gravity. (hello flatearthers)
              Then when confronted with facts, they realize how they are loosing the debate, so they reach for their red button of god of the gaps, such as “then how do you explain this, ha?”
              Can you see a resemblance?…
              It gets tiresome to keep explaining same basic principles over and over again.

          • LightsOut

            The typical uneducated internet imbeciles are the ones throwing CIG massive amounts of their cash. For NOTHING.

            But please, continue with the Ad Hominems. It’s all you have since there is no game.

        • T_0_m

          Did I mention bad PR: https://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/11/29/star-citizen-will-now-sell-you-virtual-land-that-you-cant-have

          Oh look – it’ll be another Disqus thread you guys will have to leap on to defend CIG 🙂

          • Rasto

            Kotaku who?

    • TheEdgeLord

      Selling virtual real estate.. stupid enough, but if even the virtual property doesn’t exist within the game, yet, or maybe never, all is lost… whoever doesn’t get his refund now, is probably moronic.

    • https://macross.jp/delta/walkure/ mikumo

      In other words, they’re running out of money.

      • Joe Blobers

        In other words, they are offering different type of pledge gameplay and value) to satisfy all backers who do not have the same game goal. Some will Pew-Pew solo, some will trade, some will farm/mine and land Claim License is nothing else than ship pledge. You wake up 54 years too late man 🙂

    • Nico

      Read the FAQ first… That clickbait

    • Joseph Long

      This is only “PROOF” that the reports on CIG having money issues is “REAL” and they are in desperate need of funding ….. Chris Roberts past with publishers to current events with Star Citizen have repeatedly shown he can’t handle his finances …. I backed, have hundreds $$ in ships including the (Carrack not released) … they are years behind delivery on 3.0 and Squadron 42 … maybe if they delivered what I already paid for I’d consider giving more, but at this juncture it seems like a really bad investment.

      • Joe Blobers

        Your “proof” and “real” are nothing more than pure speculation, even with cap letters. The opposite have been proven right… as CIG according to those shooting those “proof” has already collapsed several times in the past 3 years 🙂

        They are not financially at risk because pledges are just a part of the budget. There are private investors and cash $ bucket.
        3.0 and SQ42 are not years behind. Since the scope change mid-2014, delivering 2x Triple-A means longer time of development.
        3.0 is released (PTU) and 2018 is going to see many if not all jobs gameplay added.

        More info about SQ42 schedule of release in December.

    • Chase Masters

      The comments of, “No one is forcing you to spend your money” are legit. But at this point It does seem this leviathan is much better at making well crafted ship selling video commercials and creating many other persuasive methods of building their coffers compared against the progress this game has made so far. That IS the issue here and it is quite relevant no matter where you may lie on the issue. I will say this, if 3.0 isn’t substantial and a major leap forward compared to the same near junk they have out today -compared to the money and time passed thus far- personal wisdom will tell everyone, including the industry, where this is going.