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Interview

Interview with Streetroller – The Star Citizen backer who got a $2,560 refund

Interview with Streetroller – The Star Citizen backer who got a $2,560 refund

Earlier this week we reported on a dissatisfied Star Citizen backer who managed to extract a sizeable refund from Cloud Imperium Games after contacting the Los Angeles District Attorney. An investigator from the LA Department of Consumer and Business Affairs was also involved in reclaiming $2,560 USD. Streetroller (whose real name is Arthur) agreed to speak with us about the lengths he had to go to in order to get his money back, his gradual disillusionment with CIG, and why he refused to sign updated Terms of Service.

We’re presenting this interview in multiple formats. You can stream or download the verbatim interview audio, below. Listen to the same audio on YouTube. Or read an edited transcript of the discussion (also below).

 

 

PC Invasion: Hello Streetroller, thanks for talking to us. Or Arthur, as I can call you now. You must be pleased that you’ve been able to recoup your funds [from CIG].

Streetroller: Hey Peter. Yeah, I am pleased. I just wish they had done it sooner rather than have me jump through all these hoops. It was kind of tiring, to be frank.

PCI: We can get to the refund correspondence in a little bit, but I’d like to start with some backstory. I’m curious when you first were aware of Star Citizen, and when you first started pledging money.

SR: I first started pledging January 2014. The reason I initially pledged in 2014 was because they had a limited number of Alpha slots available. It was one of the things that sold me on it.

I never actually played the Alpha, but I didn’t know at the time I would end up not playing it. Arena Commander wasn’t even out yet, so there was no Alpha to play at that point.

PCI: You were just buying a slot in a prospective Alpha.

SR: Yes, exactly. Shortly after that [CIG] started selling the slots with module passes. I bought in because there were a limited number of Alpha slots, but now they were selling them. So that was the first thing. I thought, ‘come on, really?’

PCI: That’s quite early then when you’re starting to …

SR: I wasn’t thinking at that time ‘oh, I want a refund’, but it was just one of those things.

PCI: So does that constitute the $3,000 you pledged?

SR: No, I didn’t buy in all at once. I didn’t stop spending money until the middle of 2015. I bought a whole bunch of ships. Like a kid in a candy store. I get a lot of comments that I shouldn’t have spent money I didn’t have, but I did have that money – it was disposable income. I bought the Reclaimer and the $600 ship, like the space yacht of Star Citizen [note: we couldn’t recall the name during the interview – it’s very likely the 890 JUMP].

I had a friend who played Star Citizen and he really wanted one, so I gave it to him. That’s the first thing I wanted to clear up. In your article you said there’s a discrepancy about the total of $3,000 USD [versus the total documented refund of $2,560].

star-citizen-spaceyacht

The $600 space yacht. Probably.

PCI: So that’s where the other monetary amount is …

SR: Yeah, I’ll come back to that. Anyway, in the middle of 2015 or something like that they had the Armada ship pack, so I melted all my packages [a reference to ‘trading-in’ your owned ships] and got that. And I had one Hornet Ghost pack that I’d bought originally back in January [2014].

PCI: You were fully into this game.

SR: Oh yeah.

PCI: Had you played other Chris Roberts games, other space games?

SR: Yeah, I played Wing Commander back in the day. I remember it being one of the few better games back then. So I’d played Chris Roberts games before. I read the Kickstarter, and saw Virtual Reality. That was the selling point for me, the VR, and the co-op.

And the problem with Chris Roberts is it’s insanely difficult to keep up with his musings about the game. So when he says ‘we’re dropping co-op’, I didn’t know about that until months after it was announced. Only because I asked about it somewhere and they said ‘no, they’re not doing co-op’. Then I mentioned VR at one point and someone said ‘no, they’re not doing VR day one any more’.

A lot of people don’t know this about me, but I’m actually disabled, I’m in a wheelchair. So VR was a selling point for me with the head-tracking. I was kind of pissed when they delayed that and canned the co-op. But even though I was disenfranchised by those things, none of them caused me to ask for a refund.

PCI: What was the tipping point, then? What changes?

SR: The first time I started having a problem with Chris Roberts as a policy maker rather than game designer was back when he wrote the letter to The Escapist. To be abundantly clear here, I was not a member of the SomethingAwful forums nor did I have any association with Derek Smart previous to me wanting a refund.

PCI: I’ve had a SomethingAwful account since 2003 if anybody wants to use that to link me to an Illuminati conspiracy.

SR: I first found out about Derek Smart through Chris Roberts’ Escapist letter.

PCI: That’s quite ironic.

SR: I’m like ‘Why is he complaining about this guy, what happened? Why is he writing this?’ And then they had this ‘Have Our Backs’ skin sale or something. I understand you have a problem with the guy, I understand you don’t like what the Escapist is reporting, but isn’t this a little immature? I had a huge problem with it.

Then in the beginning of June or late May people started writing on the forums about how [CIG] Customer Service was labelling its members with derogatory names. Things like ‘snowflake’ and ‘high maintenence’.

starcitizen-customerservice

Gotta watch out for those pesky Goons.

PCI: What’s the source for this, were there screengrabs?

SR: Yeah, yeah. There was a short YouTube video where a guy was showing you how to find the labels. If this had happened in any other company, the guy running Customer Service would’ve been fired. It’s not acceptable. When a ticket comes in you treat everyone equally. The guy who heads CS [Ray Roocroft] even issued a statement or email at one point. He admitted to it.

PCI: And in mid June you request a refund.

SR: I did not find out about the Terms of Service change from Derek Smart. A lot of people think he approached me. I found out about the ToS change from the official forums. There was a link to an imgur showing all the changes. It had originally said something like ‘within 18 months if we fail to deliver a game you’ll be eligible for refunds’.

PCI: From the estimated delivery date, which was originally November 2014 on the Kickstarter.

SR: Right. They changed it to something like ‘if we ever cease development’. You could literally come back once a week and say ‘yep, we’re still working on it guys!’ That’s basically what Godus did, right? Molyneux says they’ve got one guy working on it, so it’s still happening.

So, you took my money. You said you’d finish a certain number of things by this date. I’m already kind of pissed off because you already broke your promises several times. And now you’re telling me you can keep my money forever. Nope. I’m out. I’m not signing a perpetuity contract.

PCI: What was the actual mechanical process when they changed the ToS? Was it when you logged into the forum, or logged into your account or something?

SR: This is the best part about it. I only found out about a ToS change because I was trawling the General Chat forums. I had spoken to a lawyer when I set about getting a refund, and he had asked ‘did they email you at any time?’ I get newsletters from Roberts Space Industries all the time, but I’d never received an indication of ToS changes. And I’d never played the Alpha, so I didn’t sign into the game and agree to it. The only time I explicitly agreed to the ToS was the checkbox I checked when I created the account, back in 2014.

When I signed up originally it actually said 12 months that they had to deliver the game. So that would’ve been November 2015. To be honest, if they’d given me notice of changing the ToS and it was to 36 months, I might have been okay with that.

starcitizen-tos-discussion

The ToS discussion thread.

PCI: Right, the scope of the project has massively expanded.

SR: Yeah. We need more time. Okay, I can understand. But to do it indefinitely …  Something that CIG needs to understand is when they make big enough changes, what counts as a big enough change for someone to qualify for a refund? As far as gameplay balancing goes, I get it, changes need to be made. But when I sign up for a Kickstarter, you’re supposed to be the expert. You’re supposed to understand the engine, and I expect you to understand that you can do what you say you’re going to do, or you can’t. That’s why I paid you money. So if you tell me ‘we’re going to have VR day one, we’re going to have co-op day one, and we’re going to do it by November 2014’ I expect that to be in the game by November 2014. I didn’t set that deadline, you did!

PCI: At what point did people agree to these new ToS that were implemented without any notice? Are [CIG] saying those kick in when people make a new purchase after the changes?

SR: The lawyer I was talking to was saying companies have a better stance the more boldly they point it out. Like those services that make you scroll all the way through to the end. But it all comes down to what a judge thinks, at the end of the day.

PCI: Their ToS haven’t actually been tested, so we don’t know if [CIG] had a legal obligation to refund you or not.

SR: I did an AMA on Reddit and people were saying ‘oh, I don’t believe this guy, he’s full of shit’ or whatever.

PCI: I bet you were dead popular on the Star Citizen Reddit channel.

SR: Yeah, I got comments like ‘this guy should overdose and kill himself’, ‘he’s a waste of oxygen’. Because I wanted a refund I’m a scumbag, I guess. They don’t realise I’m supporting them as consumers. If they ever turn around and say ‘I’m not interested in this game’, they can follow my footsteps and get their money back. I’m not telling them to do it, but what I am saying is if they want to, the option is there.

But let me go back to something about the refund amount. I voluntarily forfeited a certain amount of money, because I had been a subscriber for two years, which came to $400 or something like that. And I’d gifted one of my ships away, the $600 yacht. I didn’t expect money back for something I’d gifted away, and I didn’t expect money back on the subscription.

PCI: Sure, those are things you’ve received.

SR: So I sent in the refund request, and I gave them 30 days. Some people are saying I jumped the gun, sent one email and then pressed the nuke button. That’s not how this happened. I emailed them asking for a refund. They swiftly denied me, stating their ToS. The passage they stated to me was in the new ToS, the one that I didn’t agree to.

PCI: This is the point I don’t get, because it’s almost like the old ToS were contradictory, right? One part said ‘if we don’t deliver in 18 months you can get a refund’ and another portion seemed to be saying ‘but anything you pledge is non-refundable’.

SR: Legally speaking, the only quantifiable amount I could come up with was the amount I spent for these products. The way the ToS actual reads is something like ‘all the money we receive is going to be put towards production of the game, and if we have to refund somebody we’re only going to refund them based on the percentage of the money we have remaining’. In other words, they have $100 million, they spend $80 million. That’s 20% remaining, so they would give me back 20% of the money I spent.

Chris Roberts talks Star Citizen funding on TV – He’s also “no George Clooney”

“So the total refund would be … this big?”

PCI: So their stance, effectively, is ‘no, all the money has gone into the game’?

SR: But in order to follow through on that term in the ToS they would have to produce financials. They would have to tell me all the money they spent, and what they spent it on. I know that’s something Derek [Smart] is pushing for. I don’t particularly care about that, I just wanted my money back.

Another thing I brought up when I responded to CIG was a case in Washington State, the Asylum case.

PCI: It seemed like the Attorney General there used the Consumer Protection Act to build a case.

SR: Right, [Asylum] took a whole lot of money to make a board game, I think it was. And they just never produced it. The guy stopped updating, stopped communicating with backers. He failed to produce the product by the date. The District Attorney created a lawsuit against him under the Consumer Protection Act that basically says if somebody agrees you’re going to produce a product by a certain time, and you don’t, that person is eligible for a full refund.

A lot of people are saying ‘that money is spent, CIG can’t give it back’. As a consumer, that’s not my problem. The Asylum guy ended up paying either double or triple what he received from Kickstarter. Now if that was CIG, I can only imagine … people’s heads would explode.

PCI: That’s presupposing that a Consumer Protection Act was successfully brought against them. Which feeds back into the CIG ToS not being tested, legally.

SR: Right, and really that’s what this is. I see people say ‘CIG just did this to get rid of him’ and others saying ‘oh, he strongarmed them into getting his refund’. First of all, my Streetroller name is not even associated with my RSI account. There’s no association. And I only have something like 200 posts on the forums. I don’t go there or post that much.

They didn’t want their ToS to be tested. That’s what it comes down to. They didn’t want me to take them to court. By just giving me a refund, I don’t have any damages any more.

PCI: What was your reaction when you read Ortwin Freyermuth’s [CIG’s Star Citizen legal counsel] response to the District Attorney, where he basically trashes your complaint but agrees to refund you anyway?

SR: I understand why they did it. By writing the letter the way they did, they don’t admit fault. Some people might say ‘by giving you the refund it means they’re guilty.’ It doesn’t mean they’re guilty. It just means they didn’t want the ToS to stand up to a legal test. Maybe they didn’t feel it would, but that’s just speculation.

attorneygen-starcitizencomplaint

Somewhere, for a few minutes, a US DA had to think about expensive virtual space ships.

PCI: I’m very curious what might happen if someone else tries the same route as you.

SR: They might refund them, they might not. If it keeps happening, it’s going to end up in court. Again, that’s speculation. But there may come a point where CIG think ‘okay, we have to go to court over this’.

But here’s the interesting thing. A couple of days after receiving the letter from the DA with Ortwin’s response, all of my claims on PayPal were denied. The reason given was: ‘we received shipment tracking from the merchant confirming that the merchandise was delivered’. Shipment tracking on a digital item that I can’t even play in the game.

PCI: That’s bizarre.

SR: I called PayPal, because I really wanted to know what information they sent for it to say they’d received shipment. I’m really curious. PayPal said they couldn’t give that information to me. They said in order to get it I’d have to subpoena them. To do that I’d have to have a legal case.

PCI: So that’s a bit of a dead end.

SR: I got the DA’s response at the beginning of July, and then the PayPal denial. I’d been talking with a lawyer, gathering all the information. I was getting ready to put in a lawsuit. It was getting to that point. Funnily enough, right as we were getting there, on 11 July, investigator Anthony Wai calls me up. He’s from the LA Department of Consumer and Business Affairs. He said he’d read the letter from the District Attorney and was going to call CIG in order to resolve things amicably before they escalate.

I talked with him for about an hour, telling him pretty much everything I’m telling you now. I said ‘these guys took my money, they’re saying this thing on PayPal, telling me they’re going to give me a refund, then denying my refunds’. I was getting to the point where I was getting really annoyed. I told him I have friends who’ve paid smaller amounts to Star Citizen, and they’ve been denied refunds. And they’re not willing to sue over $60. CIG are kind of taking advantage of the fact that they know these people won’t go to court over that amount. It’s too much of a hassle.

He said if anybody else has complaints, have them file complaints with the DCBA. The more complaints they get, they can build a case. They’ll be forwarded to the DA and they’ll be able to build a case to go after CIG for Consumer Protection. I asked him if there was an investigation into CIG currently, but he said he couldn’t go into detail about that, he was more interested in solving my individual complaint.

I get off the phone with him, less than 24 hours later the money’s in my PayPal.

paypalrefund-starcitizen

The other $900 came from an Amazon refund.

So the reason I’m doing this interview, the reason I want people to know about this, is because … I hope Star Citizen succeeds, I hope it comes out … but CIG needs to understand that consumers have rights. They can’t just do whatever the hell they want. If someone does want a refund. If someone feels disenfranchised to the point where they want out, I want them to know that they have a resource.

PCI: I think we’ve covered pretty much everything I wanted to talk to you about, and more, thank you. I’ve taken up more of your time than I said I would, so I apologise for that.

SR: No, it’s fine. I’m a talker.

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Comments

  • This was a terrific interview, many thanks for that. <3

  • splurrr

    great stuff.

  • jasonallen19

    Dude got buyer’s remorse. /thread

    • Wrecked Angle

      CIG had his money, he wanted it back, he got it back. VICTORY! /thread

      • CIG is historically pretty good about giving refunds to backers who need it. But ever since Derek Smart/Escapist drama and people like this, CIG started taking every request with a grain of salt.

        Example: Some guy who pledged $13,000 got a full refund when he asked CIG and explained how a family member needs the money for medical reasons.

        • Wrecked Angle

          Derek Smart and The Escapist has sod all to do with it. CIG have taken peoples money, not delivered a game and should give a refund to anyone that requests one.

          • briguy

            No the only people who are entitled to receive a refund is the people who backed the kickstarter because that is the only place where there was an ESTIMATED released date.

            Everything that was in the terms of services, iirc, refer to the end of the original crowdfunding campaign.

            • WhiskeyWhiskers

              So the clauses that remained in the ToS about the 12 and then 18 month grace period they’d give themselves were referring to which date exactly?

            • briguy

              Only CIG knows that. They could have used the kickstater date as a basis for that time-frame but unless it’s specifically and explicitly stated within the ToS it could be an arbitrary date, after the original crowdfunding campaign (Nov ’12) or it could be after you originally backed.

            • WhiskeyWhiskers

              Then it’s not legally binding, because it would allow CIG to change the terms of the contract without my consent. You can’t make a contract arbitrary.

            • briguy

              They have the right to change the terms of the contract and you have the right to agree or disagree with it. If you cannot accept the risk of loosing your money because you disagree with an update to the contract, I’m sorry but tough.

              If you (not specifically you, but anyone who is reading this) is so disenchanted, file a complaint or a law suite; anything else and you’re breathing hot air.

            • WhiskeyWhiskers

              It can’t be an arbitrary date. No one can agree that they have the right to request the financials and a refund 12 months after a date that is not specified and that can potentially change at any point without the consent of the customer. Because as you rightly point out, everyone should have the right to agree or disagree with that change.

              “I’m sorry, but tough” applies to CIG in this case with their pleading that they’ve already spent all the backer’s cash and can’t afford to pay out refunds.

              You might have missed the bit where Streetroller did that and they caved, I had the same result for my much smaller refund when I told CIG I was going to make a complaint to the ACCC. The ToS and the childish attempts at legal intimidation CIG pull are the only hot air here.

            • briguy

              “No one can agree that they have the right to request the financials and a refund 12 months after a date that is not specified and that can potentially change at any point without the consent of the customer.”

              That right there is where you were mistaken. IIRC, the ToS specifically stated that the only time that they would release the financials is when they went belly up. The 18 month clause was for the eligibility of refunds, although I could be wrong because it has been a while since I read that specific ToS and EULA.

              “You might have missed the bit where Streetroller did that and they caved, I had the same result for my much smaller refund when I told CIG I was going to make a complaint to the ACCC. The ToS and the childish attempts at legal intimidation CIG pull are the only hot air here.”

              This is a legal tactic to show they aren’t willy-nilly giving out unjustifiable refunds. $3,000 is a drop in the bucket for them. Do you really think that they are concerned with this. They don’t want to set the precedent that you can get a unjustifiable refund. It really doesn’t take a leap of logic to come to that conclusion

            • WhiskeyWhiskers

              It was. And you were mistaken.

              Ah yes the old legal tactic of scare anyone with low confidence or anxiety from pressing forward with their justified demand for a refund. If it weren’t justified, the proper legal tactic would be to not pay.

        • frozenpeas

          I stubbed my toe. Damn you Derek Smart!!!

    • Yosharian

      Butthurt SC fanboy detected

  • jasonallen19

    What a liar. He never did an ama. He jumped into a thread were people were calling him out and tried to do damage control.

    • Dementropy

      Can you share some screenshots of his responses?

    • Called out on what? He responded to allegations.

      So state the things that he allegedly lied about. Or don’t claim that he did “damage control”.

      • jasonallen19

        Uh, he lied about doing an AMA. Dude’s making shit up to extort money he couldn’t afford to spend from CIG and making it about the ToS… which is weak, considering they updated the terms to prevent the same kind of refund abuse he’s engaging in.

        • StreetRoller
          • jasonallen19

            That’s not an AMA. I’m going to over to reddit.com/r/ama to find your ama. Oh wait.. not there.

            You just jumped into a thread and said ‘ama’. Not the same thing.

          • jasonallen19

            Going to screen shot this and post it on /r/quityourbullshit because your attempt backfired.

            • Michael Lemm

              So your basis is ‘OMG’ Street didn’t do a ‘proper reddit ama’?

              Do you shyte diamonds?

            • jasonallen19

              I wish I did.

              Yea, it’s not an ama. It’s either a proper AMA, or it’s just a ‘feel free to ask me stuff’.

              Fact is it’s one of many signs that he is embellishing.

        • Ok so he didn’t make a new thread in the AMA section of Reddit. But he did essentially respond to questions in a thread that was about him.

          That’s all you got on him? Splitting hairs over whether he made his own thread or replied to people in an existing thread? As if that changed anything?

          The TOS changes can’t be debated away. There was a 18 month limit which CIG removed right as the 18 months were about to be up. It wasn’t him who put that deadline there, it was CIG.

          But good luck trying to paint the customer as the villain.

          • jasonallen19

            Yea, that’s not an AMA.

            I never said he was a villian, just a disgruntled customer who spent money he shouldn’t have who’s stretching the truth to get money out of CIG. It’s not his money. He was not entitled to a refund.

            https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/4sjhcn/new_ds_rant_boom_there_it_is_if_your_browser/d59s3r4

            • So aside from the fact that he pressed “reply” instead of “create new thread”, do you have anything of substance to contribute? Or is that all you’re going on about?

              How is it not his money? Did he get a $2500 gift card from CIG that he suddenly cashed in on? No, he paid that money. He didn’t receive a product.

              And don’t tell me 2.4.1 is that product.

            • jasonallen19
            • Oh WAIT.

              You’re actually lying. He did an AMA. Not on the AMA sub-area-thing, but in the thread. Here is the permalink:

              https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/4sjhcn/new_ds_rant_boom_there_it_is_if_your_browser/d59s3r4

              His words, direct quote:

              “I’m the guy. AMA.”

              So if he says on the interview that he did an AMA in that subreddit (his words on the voice interview) – then you can’t even argue that minor detail.

            • jasonallen19

              I’m a detailed oriented person. That’s a minor detail I will argue. It was not an AMA. It was a comment.

            • iron buns

              “I’m a detailed oriented person.”

              A detailed, oriented person?

            • Don’t bash people. It’s not nice.

            • frozenpeas

              Derek Smart made him mistype that. Damn you DEREK SMARTTTTTT!

            • Hyco

              Jason: Do you have the details on Star Marine? Star Marine was part of Star Citizen that was coming out last April. It was supposedly delayed and was just a few weeks away. Any word on the details of that part of Star Citizen?

              Pretty sure I know the details: The coding was too difficult for CIG so it was canceled.

              Reminds me of the Tutorial mode in Star Citizen. After a year of trying to get the tutorial to work, the only thing the development team could do was remove the tutorial. The big question you should ask yourself–how many weeks did it take for developers to figure out how to disable the tutorial?

              Makes you wonder if CryEngine has a tutorial on how to create a tutorial.

            • briguy

              Way to conflate things. Star Marine was specifically designed to test the fps parts of the game. Now since the mini pu has released there is no reason to have Star Marine out except for fluff. The backers can test most of the fps stuff now.

              Just because you don’t like the reasoning doesn’t make it wrong or illogical. Try harder 😉

            • Cloverfield

              Lol, you mean like the minor detail that you accuse him of lying and then are found out to
              be lying yourself?

            • Michael Lemm

              Bad analogy… lets run with it, how about he donates with the understanding that part of the construction will involved wheelchair ramps, improved parking/access for the elderly and handicapped.

              Later those in charge decide they will not be providing those things… instead they want a newer, bigger bell and new robes for the choir instead.

            • Michael Lemm

              THAT is your opinion, not fact. I would argue that under the terms of the ToS he joined, that he was/is indeed entitled to a refund. Regardless of how you feel, ToS do NOT trump Law, and it would appear that at least his local gov’t officials felt there are some questionable actions that may have or be taking place.

            • Dementropy

              I dunno. With responses like “With any luck he’ll spend it all on heroin and overdose…” it’s really not painting that thread as being anything but toxic. Seems like Streetroller answers the questions in a straightforward manner, though.

              Stay classy, citizens.

            • jasonallen19

              I can agree that was a terrible, classless response.

            • That response was made by a known troll and is basically the only toxic thing in that thread. It was immediately downvoted and reported by the community and then removed by a moderator.

            • Michael Lemm

              Ok now that we’ve determined he did attempt an AMA and the only ‘problem’ with it is an issue of cranial rectal inversion, what is this ‘stretching’ or ’embellishing’ the ‘truth’
              and precisely how is that any different from CIG/CR’s embellishments or actions.

              Address the change to Co-Op and VR for starters….

            • jasonallen19

              hey.. ama

              Look I did an ama!

            • Michael Lemm

              Good for you, now find a professional about your anal retentive issues.

            • jasonallen19

              It’s not that I’m anal, it’s that I pay attention to detail. Details like reading ToS and understanding what I’m reading, enough to know skeetroller wasn’t entitled to a refund.

            • Michael Lemm

              Yes you are, your opening issue and persistence in regards to his ‘AMA’ is proof/evidence of that. As your OPINION in regards to the refund and relevant facts is incorrect.

            • Hyco

              Hey since you are such a detail oriented person. Could you provide the details on Star Marine? CIG hyped SataBall a bunch of cool stuff a year ago April. With your attention to detail–you must know more about that? Am I downloading the wrong thing? Where is Star Marine?

            • CIG never said anything about not doing co-op (it’s a MMO, how do you not co-op) and VR day one was never supposed to happen. A community member asked about it around the time Oculus/Vive preorders started happening and CIG confirmed that VR is not a current priority.

            • Michael Lemm

              Missing the point, yes Co-Op functionality has changed from the initial pitch, and yes VR was a selling point.

              “Virtual Reality is here!
              We have backed Oculus Rift and will support it in Star Citizen / Squadron 42. Who doesn’t want to sit in their cockpit, hands on your joystick and throttle, swiveling your head, to track that enemy fighter that just blew by?”

              https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

              from the KS campaign of all things…

            • Welp, I guess that’s my bad then.

              Alright, here’s the current stance on VR: You can use a VR headset with Star Citizen right now (look: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/PEW.gif ), it’s just not 100% supported (motion sickness is issue in FPS mode, etc.). With the changes that are being made to the graphical backend and entry/exit animations etc, CIG deemed VR support at this stage too costly to maintain (basically every change will break VR).

              TLDR: Yes, VR will be (and is) usable with Star Citizen, it’s just not officially supported, although it will be.

            • Clickbait

              Oh look, he’s got a OR headset on and clearly must be playing the game in VR and not just acting and pretending like how they are pretending they have any sort of playable tech demo let alone game.

            • About the co-op functionality, and every other feature which has changed from the initial pitch.

              Of course they’re changed. The initial pitch was 1) not an indie game, 2) less than a quarter of the current budget was expected, and 3) only one game.

              The initial plan CR had for Star Citizen was to use the kickstarter to raise enough money to get investors interested. Instead, funding blew the expected high by a lot a lot, and Star Citizen changed from a standard game (with a publisher, deadline, and a fixed budget) to what it is now, an indie game with AAA level funding. Essentially, it changed from a $2 million game to the >$115 million project that it is now.

              In my opinion, this is better for all parties involved (especially the backers) as we are getting so much more than what we pledged for. Changes from the original pitch are expected, and probably for the best.

            • Michael Lemm

              They have changed multiple times, much post the users initial purchase/ToS. There is not evidence of direct notification to Street in regards to these changes and changes to the ToS.

              Your opinion or mine in regards to those changes are invalid/moot in regards to the topic of the article.

            • If CIG has to explain every change they make to Star Citizen, there wouldn’t be a game.

            • Wrecked Angle

              There isn’t a game so I guess you’ve got that right.

            • Michael Lemm

              Lol, I’d suggest you review their pledge… the pledge They Created.
              No one forced them, they obligated themselves.

            • Michael Lemm

              Lol, I’d suggest you review their pledge… the pledge They Created.
              No one forced them, they obligated themselves.

              …and then when it comes to Eula’s and ToS’s…

            • psst: double post

            • Michael Lemm

              Nope, try again. 🙂 Your crawfishing of posts didn’t work.

            • Wrecked Angle

              You aren’t getting shit because Chris Roberts is a failure and can’t make the game he has promised. Hope that helps.

            • Darth BloodyTide

              Is that you Derek Smart? When are you going to make a good game?

            • Dementropy

              Is that you, Chris Roberts? When are you going to finish one on your own?

            • Darth BloodyTide

              A account that was made two days ago ok Derek you got us there. 30 years and not a single good game lol Unironically KYS.

            • Michael Lemm

              If you paid attention, you might note that DS has posted on this topic from his own account already.

            • Clickbait

              Everyone on the internet is Derek Smart to the paranoid and delusional Salty Cultists.

            • Darth BloodyTide

              What so its not possible for him to log on to another account he made. Ok dude

            • Michael Lemm

              Sure it’s possible, like it’s possible you might have a functioning brain cell. The likelihood of either of those things is completely another matter, as likely as you being CR using an alternate account.

            • Darth BloodyTide

              Whatever I find it funny people are supposedly taking Derek Smart words seriously when he never made a good game and hasn’t even finish the crappy one he made. Not only that accounts made in a few days spouting literally the same thing about SC.

            • Darth BloodyTide

              It’s not like its a secret Derek Smart makes alts account when he’s know for doing that for years. http://www.wikiomni.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Derek_Smart

            • Dementropy

              lol

            • HT

              Yep it’s clear he has more important things to do than make puppet accounts. Like making his pos game.

      • Streetroller was straight up lying in his interview. Here’s a few examples:

        Streetroller: “And the problem with Chris Roberts is it’s insanely difficult to keep up with his musings about the game. So when he says ‘we’re dropping co-op’, I didn’t know about that until months after it was announced.”

        Co-op is still a planned feature of the game, in both the single-player and MMO (ofc) portion.

        Streetroller: “Then I mentioned VR at one point and someone said ‘no, they’re not doing VR day one any more’.”

        VR was never a planned Day One thing. Nobody at CIG claimed they were doing VR day one.

        And here’s more: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4t14nl/pc_invasion_interview_with_streetroller_the_star/d5dscya

        And more:

        Streetroller: “It really surprised me how toxic some of the comments were”
        “People responded with ‘you’re a scumbag’, ‘you’re a piece of shit’, ‘wow you’re such a bitch'”

        This never happened. Here’s the two threads he commented in, you can ctrl+f them for yourself.

        https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/4sjhcn/new_ds_rant_boom_there_it_is_if_your_browser/
        https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4so71t/streetroller_gets_a_3000_refund_from_cig/

        The only true pure really 100% toxic comment made to him was by a known troll (u/macharial420) and was promptly downvoted/frowned upon/reported by the community and removed by a moderator.

        @jasonallen19:disqus isn’t really pursuing this argument in the right way, but this interview appears to me to be just for clicks (much drama, so wow) with no fact checking on pcinvasion’s part whatsoever.

        • Michael Lemm

          Dude, give it up.. You’re cherry picking Streets commentary w/o actually comprehending it.

          Now define ‘Day one’, from KS “We have backed Oculus Rift and will support it in Star Citizen / Squadron 42. Who doesn’t want to sit in their cockpit, hands on your joystick and throttle, swiveling your head, to track that enemy fighter that just blew by?”

          Short of it, the game has changed from what he signed up for, he requested a refund CIG said no, he followed his legal options and in the end received his refund.

          • briguy

            I would like to know where CIG had explicitly said that VR will not be in this game. Don’t worry I’ll wait

            • Michael Lemm

              I’d like to know where I stated there would never be any VR first… don’t worry, I’ll wait.

            • briguy

              Never said that you said that VR wouldn’t be in this game but you have alluded to CIG not releasing this game with VR support. So perhaps you should be a bit more clear with your message and explicitly state your claims/opinions instead of beating around the bush.

            • Michael Lemm

              “briguy Michael Lemm • 12 hours ago
              I would like to know where CIG had explicitly said that VR will not be in this game. Don’t worry I’ll wait”

              Perhaps, as already pointed out, you should work on your reading comprehension and pose questions in the context of the thread you pull them from lawyer jr.

            • briguy

              “I would like to know where CIG had explicitly said that VR will not be in this game. Don’t worry I’ll wait”

              So where do I accuse you of saying that VR will not be in this game because all I see is me simply asking if you can find any reference that says that VR isn’t going to be in this game. If you cannot than again assumption and opinions.

            • Michael Lemm

              “briguy Michael Lemm • 15 hours ago
              I would like to know where CIG had explicitly said that VR will not be in this game. Don’t worry I’ll wait”

              It’s question directed at me…so either you’re attempting retort a statement you believe I made or expecting to do research for you.
              Hence your illiterate, lazy or trying to play games.

            • briguy

              Well, yes I was retorting an implication that you made that VR wouldn’t be coming with a simple question to prove that they indeed said that VR wouldn’t be in the game. Seeing as you haven’t posted anything to the contrary I assume that have nothing to back up your implied statement.

            • Michael Lemm

              ROFL “So where do I accuse you of saying that VR will not be in this game ” / “I was retorting an implication that you made that VR wouldn’t be coming with a simple question to prove that they indeed said that VR wouldn’t be in the game.”

              Reading comprehension issues still..
              I responded to another poster in regards to Streets reasons for asking for a refund. The person I was responding to claimed that VR was ‘never a thing day one’ with SC. As I said earlier, context.
              Amusingly said poster also went along and removed several of his posts after the fact.

            • briguy

              Actually it wasn’t a reading comprehension problem it was a nested conversation problem. It looked like you were responding to this:

              Accented Toumal • a day ago
              Streetroller was straight up lying in his interview. Here’s a few examples:

              Streetroller: “And the problem with Chris Roberts is it’s insanely difficult to keep up with his musings about the game. So when he says ‘we’re dropping co-op’, I didn’t know about that until months after it was announced.”

              Co-op is still a planned feature of the game, in both the single-player and MMO (ofc) portion.

              And here’s more: https://www.reddit.com/r/starc

              And more:

              Streetroller: “It really surprised me how toxic some of the comments were”
              “People responded with ‘you’re a scumbag’, ‘you’re a piece of shit’, ‘wow you’re such a bitch'”

              This never happened. Here’s the two threads he commented in, you can ctrl+f them for yourself.

              https://www.reddit.com/r/Derek
              https://www.reddit.com/r/starc

              The only true pure really 100% toxic comment made to him was by a known troll (u/macharial420) and was promptly downvoted/frowned upon/reported by the community and removed by a moderator.

              jasonallen19 isn’t really pursuing this argument in the right way, but this interview appears to me to be just for clicks (much drama, so wow) with no fact checking on pcinvasion’s part whatsoever.

              With the previous conversation you had with him, now it makes a lot more sense. So I was wrong.

        • iron buns

          “Co-op is still a planned feature of the game”

          A much reduced feature, though. The original promise was “Drop in / Drop out co-op play” not “Replay some missions as co-op.”

          “This never happened.”

          https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4so71t/streetroller_gets_a_3000_refund_from_cig/d5b0pqw
          https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4so71t/streetroller_gets_a_3000_refund_from_cig/d5bc53h
          https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4so71t/streetroller_gets_a_3000_refund_from_cig/d5awmhg

          Do I need to go on? Because I don’t really want to.

          • All these three examples are people with experience with Streetroller himself voicing their opinion. I stand by my comment that nobody straight up said OMG WOW YOUR SUCH A BITCH/SCUMBAG/POS.

            • Michael Lemm

              …and you have access to his pm’s etc? Seriously, the fact Jason & you focus on that schlock borders almost on pathetic.

            • briguy

              Then all Streetroller had to do to prove that people connected/pm’d him these nasty things is screenshot it.

              Maybe because I was raised by a lawyer but I need verifiable evidence or its Hersey

            • Michael Lemm

              He doesn’t have to ‘prove’ shyte to you.
              Amusingly one only had to check the threads to see he caught flak, and the other two nimrods here already confirmed one person being overly obnoxious in their own statements. All of which has jack shyte in regards to the actual topic.

              btw, the term is ‘Hearsay’, and would apply to the new source reporting and not to street.

            • briguy

              Um no the burden of proof is on him to back up his claim that people messaged him the way he described. Just because one asshat was proven to have said what Streetroller claimed doesn’t validate everything else; it only validates that one aspect.

              Ever heard of auto-correct? Also Hearsay is a legal term which implies that someone is offering opinion/rumor instead of facts. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hearsay?s=t

            • Michael Lemm

              Reading comprehension is important, nor is ‘auto-correct’ a valid excuse if one is going to babble about ‘being raised by a lawyer’.
              Particularly if you can’t even understand the word your trying to use.

              “unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one’s direct knowledge”
              Streetroller is the complainant, he was relating direct experience thus he would be lying or telling the truth.
              Me telling you he was insulted and attacked, or that he was ignored would be hearsay.
              Hence as I already stated, then would be the news source or others making the claim and not Streetroller himself.

              “Um no the burden of proof is on him to back up his claim that people messaged him the way he described. Just because one asshat was proven to have said what Streetroller claimed doesn’t validate everything else; it only validates that one aspect.”

              Lol, the burden of proof is that people were ‘toxic’ to him, but just because one asshat was proven that doesn’t validate anything else, but only validates one aspect? Get real and pop your head out of your arse. According to you, in order for him to say people were toxic to him, he has to validate each instance?
              Lol, no. Further it’s his opinion, your opinion may differ but does not invalidate his and he is under no ‘burden of proof’ to demonstrate to you, me or anyone else.
              The mere fact, or reality of the situation is that your butthurt and reaching for straws with no real cogent argument.

            • briguy

              “Reading comprehension is important, nor is ‘auto-correct’ a valid excuse if one is going to babble about ‘being raised by a lawyer’.
              Particularly if you can’t even understand the word your trying to use.”

              Oh, I understand how it is used but perhaps you don’t understand how I’m using it. I’m making the assumption that he is wrong or embellishing things. Within this context, to me, he has to prove his claim and everything said or offered before that is hearsay to the baseline norm (which I go into great detail below).
              Nice attempt to invalidate my statement with something that is both contrived and flimsy just so you could “win a point” in an argument. Especially since the term “Hearsay” isn’t in the “every-day” vernacular or lexicons that most software keyboard dictionaries pull from. But I concede the point, I should proof-read my posts before posting them

              “Streetroller is the complainant, he was relating direct experience thus he would be lying or telling the truth.
              Me telling you he was insulted and attacked, or that he was ignored would be hearsay.
              Hence as I already stated, then would be the news source or others making the claim and not Streetroller himself……Lol, the burden of proof on Street is that people were ‘toxic’ to him, but just because one asshat was proven that doesn’t validate anything else, but only validates one aspect? Get real and pop your head out of your arse. According to you, in order for him to say people were toxic to him, he has to validate each instance?
              Lol, no. Further it’s his opinion, your opinion may differ but does not invalidate his and he is under no ‘burden of proof’ to demonstrate to you, me or anyone else.”

              As you said he is the complaintant so logic dictates that in order to complain about something there has to be a norm, or baseline, to which something can be complained about. So the baseline would be the inverse of what he is complaining about which is people did not message him with these awful things to say. Because he is going against this norm, he has to prove that people are saying horrible things to him. QED, he has the burden of proof and until he proves is claim, it is merely opinion against that norm; ergo it’s hearsay.

              “The mere fact, or reality of the situation is that your butthurt and reaching for straws with no real cogent argument.”

              Way to assume something that isn’t true. I’m not butthurt about anything; the only thing I care about is fact and truth. Anything beyond that is purely supposition and conjecture to which I have little time for.

            • Michael Lemm

              Congratulations, you cut/pasted a wall of shyte and babbled til your blue in the face to demonstrate your clueless.

              “Anything beyond that is purely supposition and conjecture to which I have little time for.”

              Yea right, hence posting on Discqus making excuses for incorrect verbiage obsessing because your feel someone else did not (to you) adequately demonstrate harassment… 🙂

            • briguy

              The only thing I cut and pasted was your diatribe so you basically insulted yourself; good job! Oh I’m done responding about this because it seems that all you want to do is dance around instead of conversing.

            • Michael Lemm

              You spent lords knows how long trying to justify accusing Street of ‘hearsay’ then claim “the only thing I care about is fact and truth. Anything beyond that is purely supposition and conjecture to which I have little time for”

              You’ve done naught to open an actual conversation.

            • briguy

              Not true, I’ve been arguing why I feel that the burden of proof is on him to prove that he was getting messages and comments that he described in the interview (the catalyst of this whole argument/conversation). I only said it was hearsay because it was in relation to the inverse of his complaints.
              I’ve laid out my position but it seems like it’s you who is confused and cannot offer up a satisfactory counter; perhaps you suffer from the same affliction that you accuse me of: reading comprehension

            • Michael Lemm

              Yes, you incorrectly used the word and attempt to find an excuse to justify it.
              I know what your position is, I don’t care, it’s no more valid than jason’s in relation to the topic of the article. Of the ‘bits’ it’s probably the most petty, which make the repeated focus of it so…pathetic.

            • briguy

              Jesus dude, you’re still going about this. Either add to the conversation so it can advance or stop commenting. It matters little to me

            • Michael Lemm

              Yea, which is why you keep replying with more BS. As you said you laid out your position, then I laid out myne. That could, in fact should have been the end of it….but no LawyerJr had to flap his gums again. 🙂

            • iron buns

              The guy gets some pretty serious abuse, but that’s okay because he didn’t quote them exactly on a phone interview? And on top of that you call him a liar. Classy.

      • jasonallen19

        That’s not an AMA by reddit standards. That’s a comment that says AMA.

        • Again, a minor technicality. He told people in that thread: Ask me anything. AMA. He didn’t do it in a separate thread.

          It’s still an AMA, even if it’s within a subreddit. It might not be an “official AMA”. But that’s a technicality, while you accused him of lying.

          • jasonallen19

            A minor technicality, kind of like the minor technicality that showed he wasn’t entitled to a refund, but got it by threatening to force CIG to spend more money in legal fees fighting him than what the refund was worth.

            • Michael Lemm

              again that is merely opinion, not fact.
              He did not threaten CIG with anything. They refused, he informed him he was contacting said departments. The departments in question would make determination of wether or not to persue a court case. If the ToS was so airtight and legal as you claim, all they would have to do is meet the terms of it. After all they have their in house attorney, the only real cost would be IF they lost… which of course then would create precedent in regards to the legality of their ‘ToS’ and it’s subsequent changes.

            • Hyco

              Minor technicality? If you don’t accept the TOS how are you supposed to play the game? CIG changed the TOS–not the player. I have requested a refund three times. Something tells me the 4th time will be the charm. CIG has every right to change the TOS. But I have every right not to accept the TOS. And in do so, I know I can’t play the game. But if I can’t play the game–give me back my money.

              Maybe it is time you learn the words of Snoop Dogg: Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

  • Harrison Ford

    Peter Parrish doing the reacharound on Braben’s mediocre snoozefest, say it ain’t so!

  • Skyrant

    This is the Video with the evidence of labeling cutomers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXD7JKT6bcE

  • Coke Hobbits

    Thanks for writing this up, it’s really important that potential future consumers hear about this.

  • Joe smith

    It’s good to see some people are finally waking up from the SC dream.

    But of course the unhinged fanboys/cult are going to attack anyone critical of their precious.

  • Bjørn Sandåker

    Interesting to read one side of the case, but that’s just only one side. PC Invasion should’ve reached out to CIG officials for comments, to balance this article a bit. As it is now many arguments remains uncontested.

    Those of us who have followed the project from the beginning often have a somewhat different view on things than this (former) backer.

    For instance, the estimated delivery date that was pushed forward is easy to explain in a way that makes sense to most people. It’s no secret – they kept receiving millions of dollars and therefore had to expand the scope. If they hadn’t, but delivered the original promised game instead and pocketed the extra millions, then the outcry would’ve been huge and the accusations of a scam would’ve had more merit. CIG didn’t have a choice. In all practicality, they had to use the extra money they got for a larger scope. It isn’t feature creep or delayed delivery, it’s taking backers seriously and put their money into the game.

    • Paul Younger

      CIG will not comment on this stuff. We have reached out a few times and it gets nowhere. However, this needs to be covered and if CIG do not want to be part of the discussion then that is their decision.

  • Thomas England

    Star Citizen has long been a disaster in the making in terms of game development. Awesome ideas, incredible team… historic past… followed with mistake, after mistake, after mistake. Roberts NEVER should have headed his own company (it’s obvious he is a talented designer though), the guy doesn’t understand the basics of game production-development, terms like feature creep fly way over his head and those of the SC fanatics that hope for his game. I WOULD LOVE Star Citizen as it was originally described. Wish It had come out too. But idea after idea had to be added in… and hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars swayed Chris that bigger was better. Chris obviously never heard the term, “The Best is the Enemy of the Good”. I do hope Star Citizen comes out one day, and I hope it’s successful. I hope this, on behalf of those who would likely trash me for speaking out against their beloved creator. Sorry folks, you sound like a cult. Bad is bad, good is good, and in-development in perpetuity is bad.

  • sampson3121

    spending $600 on a ship, in a video game, is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. after hearing that i think he shouldn’t have been able to get his money back, based on stupidity.